tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8732450981122480802.post642188025973154244..comments2024-03-27T06:25:47.046+00:00Comments on Richard Walker's Blog: On Baptism in Water and the SpiritRichard Walkerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01992452050525845190noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8732450981122480802.post-18439767775741736582014-03-10T23:13:45.511+00:002014-03-10T23:13:45.511+00:00Yep! Very true. Well I think that's enough mut...Yep! Very true. Well I think that's enough mutual edification to keep us going for now :)Chris Wooldridgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12165091074655092909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8732450981122480802.post-16195388558402301872014-03-10T14:34:47.748+00:002014-03-10T14:34:47.748+00:00Hi Chris, sorry for the delay, blogging is a hobby...Hi Chris, sorry for the delay, blogging is a hobby after all.<br /><br />I agree with all your points - I emphasise the experience of joy for being in union with Christ only in as much as I want to avoid settling into the mediocrity of saying that it never matters if our emotions are not united happily with truth / reality. I also want to avoid giving the impression that the giving of the Spirit is necessarily tied to a particular supernatural manifestation.<br /><br />I also agree with your point about the power and authority in witnessing, although I think it is part of the whole which is the giving of the Spirit for establishing the Church as the newly delegated authority of Christ in the world. Her authority is for that of taking dominion in all things, not just evangelism. She is the second Eve for the second Adam...<br /><br />A hearty amen to your second paragraph. Thanks for taking the time to comment. :-)Richard Walkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01992452050525845190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8732450981122480802.post-916967635977827262014-03-06T15:16:36.437+00:002014-03-06T15:16:36.437+00:00Hi Richard,
I do think our experiences are import...Hi Richard,<br /><br />I do think our experiences are important, and many of those passages you refer to reflect a joy and sincerity of heart which is hard to come by in many Christian circles (and is therefore much needed). But I'm not sure that the term "baptism with the Holy Spirit" is best used to describe such experiences. Certainly many Christians have experienced joy in the Spirit on a number of occasions (myself included). But biblically, Jesus teaches in Acts 2 that the main purpose of the giving of the Spirit is for power and authority in witnessing. Of course, we should expect there to be joy in such situations, just as a couple usually feels joy (and solemnity) on their wedding day. But just as the lack of a joyful wedding experience would not invalidate the wedding, so too the lack of joy in undergoing Baptism and the laying on of hands would not invalidate a person's spirit baptism.<br /><br />Another point to mention would be that in many of those passages which you cite, the experience of joy is sought in community with other people, not as an individualistic pursuit. Perhaps that helps us navigate this tricky issue a bit better. Galatians 5 distinguishes between works of the flesh (about serving yourself) and works of the Spirit (serving others). Instead of seeking the experience of joy for its own sake, we should seek one another's joy, and we often get the experience of joy in even greater abundance!Chris Wooldridgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12165091074655092909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8732450981122480802.post-26233077829251404122014-03-06T06:56:13.280+00:002014-03-06T06:56:13.280+00:00Like I said in the original post, all this needs g...Like I said in the original post, all this needs great wisdom and pastoral care wrapped around it.<br /><br />The church has a great responsibility to disciple people through their new experiences appropriately.Richard Walkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01992452050525845190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8732450981122480802.post-54016235334221163252014-03-06T06:51:00.607+00:002014-03-06T06:51:00.607+00:00Hi Chris, you may be right saying that I am elevat...Hi Chris, you may be right saying that I am elevating experience higher than I ought, but that isn't my intention, or if it is, it's not in the navel gazing way that wider culture assumes.<br /><br />I want to treat people as whole human beings with emotions too. I totally agree with you, Glen and the whole of faithful Church history that Christ's work on our behalf and our participation in it is objective fact to be received in faith.<br /><br />When I talk of experience, I mean along the lines of Luke 10:21 - when Jesus rejoices in the Spirit that the gospel has been revealed to the weak not the strong. Or how about Rom. 15:3 that we may be filled with joy and peace in believing through the hope of the Holy Spirit or Rom.14:17 that the Kingdom of God is righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit or 1 Peter 1:8 that we are filled with joy inexpressible and full of glory.<br /><br />All these experiences point to a joy in revealed truth that a person is caught up in rather than a navel gazing experience. There are similarities between the two on a surface level, but they are at root different.<br /><br />I agree we mustn't overly focus on emotions or worse, pursue the endorphins that come from these experiences, but to ignore them altogether? Don't you just end up with other problems? A bunch of people who believe the right stuff but have no guts or fire in their belly about it except when around people who agree with them? Where's the power for kingdom expansion and self sacrifice in that?Richard Walkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01992452050525845190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8732450981122480802.post-77829701683811891872014-03-04T12:57:57.882+00:002014-03-04T12:57:57.882+00:00I'm not sure I agree. It sounds like you are e...I'm not sure I agree. It sounds like you are elevating 'experience' as the main factor in determining whether or not someone has been baptised with the Spirit. In the Bible, the determining factor is repentance and water baptism (Acts 2:38), possibly accompanied by the laying on of hands (confirmation). In his letters, the Apostle Paul often writes to Churches and simply assumes that they have all received the Spirit. That's not to deny that people often do have a strong sense of God's presence whilst undergoing baptism or the laying on of hands, but rather it's to see such experiences in their proper perspective.<br /><br />This article by Glen Scrivener is along the same lines, but to do with the new birth: http://christthetruth.net/2013/10/14/new-birth-is-in-christ/<br />I agree with the evangelical doctrine of the new birth, but I think there is a real danger when we insist on it being an experience - instead of being a blessing received through faith in Christ (not our subjective feelings). I think the same is the case with Baptism in the Holy Spirit. God's Spirit is free, and He has freely chosen to give Himself to us through Word and Sacrament, as we respond in faith.Chris Wooldridgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12165091074655092909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8732450981122480802.post-90110661825592707922014-02-27T06:41:25.780+00:002014-02-27T06:41:25.780+00:00My perception is, and I may be wrong, that we coul...My perception is, and I may be wrong, that we could humble ourselves and learn a thing or two from the traditional denominations - Catholics / Orthodox / Anglican. That said, in those contexts I do feel that it can fall into danger 1 becoming a more of a rite to be performed than a turning point to be experienced. Richard Walkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01992452050525845190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8732450981122480802.post-2741493812952501772014-02-26T22:07:17.605+00:002014-02-26T22:07:17.605+00:00The rite of Confirmation, eh? Seems like a sound s...The rite of Confirmation, eh? Seems like a sound suggestion to me. And it makes sense of the fact that water baptism and spirit baptism are strongly associated.Chris Wooldridgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12165091074655092909noreply@blogger.com